Scientifically speaking, you can't compare those pictures, because "body type" is not the only variable there. And some of those other variables are more important for attraction than body type.
Trusting what women say they like is a trap lol Women's assessments of men (and all things) are highly ... idk holistic? For anyone who knows anything about women it's obvious they say they prefer the "before" picture because in the "after" picture the guy looks kind of douchey and tryhard. Women are giving their opinion on the whole picture not the body. Same with 58% liking the skinny guy with tattoos - the other pictures have no tattoos. And Brad Pitt is in a power pose in his famous body shot - the fact he is in this perfect thirst trap position is the whole reason this picture has been viral on the internet for decades now.
Yeah, the Brad Pitt picture isn't fair because women do prefer one type of muscle more than any of the others, which is the part where the abs taper down, aka "sex lines", aka "the adonis belt".
Agree; the "after" shot has worse lighting and it reeks of someone trying too hard. But per the title of the post it's also not close to a "body builder" physique; he didn't bulk up- he actually got pretty close to the "lean/muscular" physique women say they DO prefer.
Yes, and had he made a more relaxed power pose (contrapposto for ex. - it's a classic for a reason) instead of flexing (which women universally dislike) he would have gotten way more positive reactions.
I don't think "women prefer tattoos" so much as the tattoos in this particular shot create an overall tone of danger, daring and mystique, which is the thing more important than body type. This is what I meant when I said women's assessments of men are highly holistic.
They should really have a t-shirt on for the photos they show in these polls instead of being bare-chested since that is how women are most likely to see and judge a man's physique.
Women go crazy for singers like the Beatles, teenage Bieber and BTS. All sing about love, none of them is muscular. Looking at male kpop idols they are all lean and fit but I can think of only one who is very muscular. These skinny dudes have millions of crazed female fans who bulk buy their albums and merch thanks to parasocial romantic delusions.
Movies with buff roided dudes like Arnold, the Rock, Hemsworth and Cavill are primarily targeted at straight males who like to identify with powerful heroes.
The irony of the "spend too much time in the gym and not enough time to spend with her" thesis against bodybuilders is that women love travelling musicians.
Then again, music is cool in a way that being a gym rat is just not.
I mean, "teenage girls" go crazy for K-Pop/boy band types; I don't know any 30 year old female who'd claim that's their ideal. Whereas many would say they'd cheat on their husbands with Hemsworth or circa-2012 Hugh Jackman.
One thing I think people underrate about these sorts of things is the supply side. It's possible that very low BF% men do well in the dating market if the amount of such men shrinks faster than the amount of women attracted to them.
(A similar dynamic seems to contribute to anorexia among women?)
There's also that (now ancient) Oktrends post that pointed out that being polarizing is great for dating. People rated average or below, because half hate them and half love them - so even if ~70%-80% of women hate men above a certain fitness or muscularity, you can still do pretty well if the remainder loves it, especially if they're more likely to be fit or gym bunnies as well.
And indeed, anecdotally I've known many strength athletes and bodybuilders as friends, and they have zero trouble finding and dating attractive women.
You don't necessarily want to be what median tastes find attractive.
The gym I work out at has tons of bodybuilders, and most women definitely are not into that. First of all, their girlfriends are generally ALSO some kind of fitness model or bodybuilder. You see a guy like that and assume his whole life revolves around it...that his eating is extremely limited and that he's eating a carton of eggs and a dozen chicken breasts a day and spending a ton on supplements and probably on roids. You assume he basically has body dysmorphia and is probably grossed out by normal female bodies that aren't ALSO spending three hours a day in the gym. And also that he might be gay, or at least extremely vain and obsessed with his appearance and I don't think any woman likes that.
Also, I did once date a bodybuilder...in that instance it was something to get over, not something I liked, but he had a great sense of humor so I pushed through the weirdness. Actually touching those bodies is WEIRD. They don't feel normal, when there is zero fat later under the skin. Feels like a slab of beef or something, it's hard to explain but I really did not like feeling every striation and vein. He also would sweat literal buckets during sex...idk if that's a side effect of steroids or all that muscle increases body temperature or what, but his sweat would actually be dripping off him onto me and I would get drenched with his sweat, which was gross. As far as actually BEING with a guy into that lifestyle, I give it two strong thumbs down.
I think women generally like good proportions with broad shoulders and back compared to waist and long torso. The level of fat or muscle required to look like that will depend somewhat on skeleton and body type. Guys who kind of naturally look like that can probably get away with being just sorta fit, while others with a wider waist or hips compared to their shoulders might need to get pretty low body fat and bulk up their muscles to achieve that look.
Anyway, it shouldn't even be an argument that guys like huge muscles more than women. That is super obvious if you look at the celebrities they favor. Even wrt Brad Pitt, he was at the height of his popularity when he was more of a slim pretty boy in Thelma & Louise and Legends of the Fall. He didn't become popular with men til he started doing roids and bulked up for Fight Club and Troy.
A healthy physique is probably more desirable. Bodybuilders with body fat below a certain range isn't actually healthy. Often bodybuilders dehydrate themselves to make their muscles pop that much. Athletic physique is more popular.
I do not like the idea of a man’s being so obsessed with his body that he has neglected reading, thinking about all of humanity, the injustices and not pondering his responsibility. Joe Rogan and Bobby Kennedy are two exceptions that come to mind; however, Joe Rogan’s tats give me pause. I find them utterly unacceptable.
Yes, strong is appealing. The percentages showed that women preferred the non-body builder body. Every eye sees its own beauty. I don't like yellow or dazzling white chicklet teeth, prefer a natural white, again to each his own.
Being that muscle bound is also extremely disadvantageous from an evolutionary standpoint. As hunters-gatherers, strength was important but stamina even moreso-a successful hunter had to be able to track game over hundreds of miles. Also needed speed to both evade predators and chase down prey. Which is why women consistently rank lean musculature over bulked-up physiques.
Interesting. Seems they like healthy more than pure strength. Same dynamic with women, where the pencil-thin look is high status and obsessed over by many women, but not valued by straight men.
Having seen gym rats, or “body builders” in the gym, I too wonder what women might see in them. Could there also be a subconscious fear of overly muscular men as physically more dangerous to be associated with? Between those types and the stringy, skinny, sickly types there would seem to be the perfect medium. Of which, you’ve show a number of them as one would predict—even ignoring the good breeder/good provider explanation. I’d pick them too, although the “dad bod” option is not my first choice as a male. I’m a second to the left guy myself. ;-)
Scientifically speaking, you can't compare those pictures, because "body type" is not the only variable there. And some of those other variables are more important for attraction than body type.
Trusting what women say they like is a trap lol Women's assessments of men (and all things) are highly ... idk holistic? For anyone who knows anything about women it's obvious they say they prefer the "before" picture because in the "after" picture the guy looks kind of douchey and tryhard. Women are giving their opinion on the whole picture not the body. Same with 58% liking the skinny guy with tattoos - the other pictures have no tattoos. And Brad Pitt is in a power pose in his famous body shot - the fact he is in this perfect thirst trap position is the whole reason this picture has been viral on the internet for decades now.
Apples and oranges...
Yeah, the Brad Pitt picture isn't fair because women do prefer one type of muscle more than any of the others, which is the part where the abs taper down, aka "sex lines", aka "the adonis belt".
Agree; the "after" shot has worse lighting and it reeks of someone trying too hard. But per the title of the post it's also not close to a "body builder" physique; he didn't bulk up- he actually got pretty close to the "lean/muscular" physique women say they DO prefer.
Yes, and had he made a more relaxed power pose (contrapposto for ex. - it's a classic for a reason) instead of flexing (which women universally dislike) he would have gotten way more positive reactions.
very true, women seem bad at isolating one particular variable in their head, even when its clear that you're only asking for that one thing
> Same with 58% liking the skinny guy with tattoos - the other pictures have no tattoos.
are you saying that so many women prefer tattoos so in this poll it's more important than body type?
I don't think "women prefer tattoos" so much as the tattoos in this particular shot create an overall tone of danger, daring and mystique, which is the thing more important than body type. This is what I meant when I said women's assessments of men are highly holistic.
They should really have a t-shirt on for the photos they show in these polls instead of being bare-chested since that is how women are most likely to see and judge a man's physique.
What do revealed preferences show?
Women go crazy for singers like the Beatles, teenage Bieber and BTS. All sing about love, none of them is muscular. Looking at male kpop idols they are all lean and fit but I can think of only one who is very muscular. These skinny dudes have millions of crazed female fans who bulk buy their albums and merch thanks to parasocial romantic delusions.
Movies with buff roided dudes like Arnold, the Rock, Hemsworth and Cavill are primarily targeted at straight males who like to identify with powerful heroes.
The irony of the "spend too much time in the gym and not enough time to spend with her" thesis against bodybuilders is that women love travelling musicians.
Then again, music is cool in a way that being a gym rat is just not.
I mean, "teenage girls" go crazy for K-Pop/boy band types; I don't know any 30 year old female who'd claim that's their ideal. Whereas many would say they'd cheat on their husbands with Hemsworth or circa-2012 Hugh Jackman.
One thing I think people underrate about these sorts of things is the supply side. It's possible that very low BF% men do well in the dating market if the amount of such men shrinks faster than the amount of women attracted to them.
(A similar dynamic seems to contribute to anorexia among women?)
There's also that (now ancient) Oktrends post that pointed out that being polarizing is great for dating. People rated average or below, because half hate them and half love them - so even if ~70%-80% of women hate men above a certain fitness or muscularity, you can still do pretty well if the remainder loves it, especially if they're more likely to be fit or gym bunnies as well.
And indeed, anecdotally I've known many strength athletes and bodybuilders as friends, and they have zero trouble finding and dating attractive women.
You don't necessarily want to be what median tastes find attractive.
Height is similar: 200 cm men might be less desired by short women, but 190 cm women feel they have to approach them.
The gym I work out at has tons of bodybuilders, and most women definitely are not into that. First of all, their girlfriends are generally ALSO some kind of fitness model or bodybuilder. You see a guy like that and assume his whole life revolves around it...that his eating is extremely limited and that he's eating a carton of eggs and a dozen chicken breasts a day and spending a ton on supplements and probably on roids. You assume he basically has body dysmorphia and is probably grossed out by normal female bodies that aren't ALSO spending three hours a day in the gym. And also that he might be gay, or at least extremely vain and obsessed with his appearance and I don't think any woman likes that.
Also, I did once date a bodybuilder...in that instance it was something to get over, not something I liked, but he had a great sense of humor so I pushed through the weirdness. Actually touching those bodies is WEIRD. They don't feel normal, when there is zero fat later under the skin. Feels like a slab of beef or something, it's hard to explain but I really did not like feeling every striation and vein. He also would sweat literal buckets during sex...idk if that's a side effect of steroids or all that muscle increases body temperature or what, but his sweat would actually be dripping off him onto me and I would get drenched with his sweat, which was gross. As far as actually BEING with a guy into that lifestyle, I give it two strong thumbs down.
I think women generally like good proportions with broad shoulders and back compared to waist and long torso. The level of fat or muscle required to look like that will depend somewhat on skeleton and body type. Guys who kind of naturally look like that can probably get away with being just sorta fit, while others with a wider waist or hips compared to their shoulders might need to get pretty low body fat and bulk up their muscles to achieve that look.
Anyway, it shouldn't even be an argument that guys like huge muscles more than women. That is super obvious if you look at the celebrities they favor. Even wrt Brad Pitt, he was at the height of his popularity when he was more of a slim pretty boy in Thelma & Louise and Legends of the Fall. He didn't become popular with men til he started doing roids and bulked up for Fight Club and Troy.
There is a huge difference here between stated preference and revealed preference
A healthy physique is probably more desirable. Bodybuilders with body fat below a certain range isn't actually healthy. Often bodybuilders dehydrate themselves to make their muscles pop that much. Athletic physique is more popular.
I do not like the idea of a man’s being so obsessed with his body that he has neglected reading, thinking about all of humanity, the injustices and not pondering his responsibility. Joe Rogan and Bobby Kennedy are two exceptions that come to mind; however, Joe Rogan’s tats give me pause. I find them utterly unacceptable.
"the injustices and not pondering his responsibility". What does this even mean XD
I mean, women are also attracted to other things totally unrelated to looks, or you wouldn't see writers getting laid in France.
“women also prefer men who spend their time on them and their families instead of going to the gym 20 hours a week.”
This is basically it. Women anecdotally tend to say “I don’t want a man who spends more time on himself than with me.”
I’ve casually noticed this with some sub-elite athlete men I know too - they don’t have all that much time for girls.
A body builder's body is not natural, no more than a woman with big pumped up unnatural looking lips. It is a visual thing.
Yeah, I think this is it. Women do like big and strong, just not the kind that looks fake.
Yes, strong is appealing. The percentages showed that women preferred the non-body builder body. Every eye sees its own beauty. I don't like yellow or dazzling white chicklet teeth, prefer a natural white, again to each his own.
Being that muscle bound is also extremely disadvantageous from an evolutionary standpoint. As hunters-gatherers, strength was important but stamina even moreso-a successful hunter had to be able to track game over hundreds of miles. Also needed speed to both evade predators and chase down prey. Which is why women consistently rank lean musculature over bulked-up physiques.
Interesting. Seems they like healthy more than pure strength. Same dynamic with women, where the pencil-thin look is high status and obsessed over by many women, but not valued by straight men.
There should be a Tony Soprano ideal body meme somewhere here
And yet shredded athletes like professional wrestlers, American Football players, Boxers, etc do extremely well with women. Go figure
Now do one on what men want in a female physique.
> Now do one on what men want in a female physique.
An able job done here with an N=379 survey and AI images:
https://substack.com/inbox/post/161358152
I'ma predict women want men to be in the gym 2.5 hours per week, average.
Having seen gym rats, or “body builders” in the gym, I too wonder what women might see in them. Could there also be a subconscious fear of overly muscular men as physically more dangerous to be associated with? Between those types and the stringy, skinny, sickly types there would seem to be the perfect medium. Of which, you’ve show a number of them as one would predict—even ignoring the good breeder/good provider explanation. I’d pick them too, although the “dad bod” option is not my first choice as a male. I’m a second to the left guy myself. ;-)