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Sebastian Jensen's avatar

I have not tested this formally, but I don't think this applies between countries. It looks robust between individuals, though.

https://twitter.com/sebjenseb/status/1776542799598387543

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Joshua Oreskovich's avatar

without the actual data questions this is hard to make heads or tails of.

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Emil O. W. Kirkegaard's avatar

Here's the code and detailed results. https://rpubs.com/EmilOWK/VES_religion_eugenics

Here's code and data: https://osf.io/agw8s/

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Joshua Oreskovich's avatar

Thank you very much, I appreciate this.

trying to sort out if this is moreso causal due to race (neurology/body mass (functionality)/IQ), or whether it's a demonstration of cultural effects. Such as the aged Nicoyans and Okinawans, who live longer happier lives by the metrics and are very 'culturally' religious.

It may not be distinguishable, as they might be one and the same.

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Emil O. W. Kirkegaard's avatar

The results in this paper are the same (actually slightly stronger) if you ignore non-Whites.

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Joshua Oreskovich's avatar

I'd be curious to know what you think of this assertion.

Those results aren't separating for G-factor necessarily, but rather conscientiousness, which is generally speaking working somewhat in opposition to high abstraction, high sensitivity autism.

If true, genetic alteration will either deceptively continue making things more dysgenic, produce conservatives or both.

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Emil O. W. Kirkegaard's avatar

Conscientiousness does not correlate with g, so it's a non-starter.

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Joshua Oreskovich's avatar

This study(?) seems to indicate there's a negative correlation to achievement seeking which for some reason falls under their concept of conscientiousness.

"In both the observer and self-rated perspective achievement striving

was the strongest negative predictor of IQ."

http://icelab.psych.uw.edu.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Is-conscientiousness-positively-or-negatively-related-to-intelligence.pdf#:~:text=Although%20conceptually%20conscientiousness%20should%20be%20positively%20associated%20with,investigations%20reported%20a%20negative%20association%20of%20thetwo%20var-iables.

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Headless Marbles's avatar

> Well, for the benefit of this small minority of readers,

This was my first question; thanks for anticipating and answering it :)

Second question: what does this dataset say about the relationship between g and religiousness, and what does Jensen's method look like on that relationship? My dumb prior is that there is a negative relationship, which, coupled with the religiousness interaction, might describe a dynamical system with negative feedback that constrains the range of g over time (more religious people have more eugenic selection, but eventually the IQ drift that results from that selection turns down religiousness, moving back toward dysgenic selection) -- and you've just estimated some of the parameters of that system.

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John Rawls's avatar

interestingly, it seems that relation is reverse in between countries. For example Northern Europeans have weaker dysgenic fertility but latin america has strong dysgenic fertility.

https://www.sebjenseb.net/p/immigration-in-europe-dysgenics-in

More importantly, There is negative correlation in between IQ and religiousness. Therefore this process is self-destructive.

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Emil O. W. Kirkegaard's avatar

It would appear there is a kind of evolutionary loop. Religious people evolve higher intelligence. This makes them eventually lose religion. But losing religion reverses the selection for intelligence, making them duller again. Eventually, this reverses and it's back where it started. Of course, very speculative.

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Ferien's avatar

And this is why long-term increments in intelligence require millions of years (thousands of such cycles)?

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Realist's avatar

"Of course, very speculative."

To say the least.

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Tamritz's avatar

The fertility rate of Ashkenazi Haredim in Israel is higher than that of Mizrahi Haredim. About 7 children per woman versus 6 children per woman. This is consistent with your conclusion. People with an extreme ideology implement it more consistently as their intelligence is higher.

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Realist's avatar

Thanks for an interesting and informative article.

"First, the intelligence measurement is poor to mediocre, being the 10-item Wordsum vocabulary test."

I agree; any spelling or vocabulary test is mostly a memory test, as little reason or logic is involved in language. At best, memory is only part of cognitive ability.

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Disgenik's avatar

Whitepill

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Andrew Cutler's avatar

My guess is that the internet has attenuated or reversed the positive correlation of fertility and intelligence among Mormons. Mormonism is a demanding faith, and before the internet people tended to leave because they didn't want such a strict lifestyle. With the internet, most Mormons also have to square their faith with information they hear about the history of the Church. In my experience, it's the smarter ones that leave. When I lost my faith at BYU, my heretical friends were all at the top of our class.

Vast simplification all around for people's motives and how things have changed, but that is at least what I observed at BYU ten years ago.

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Jim Jackson's avatar

Religious practice demands disciplined living. More intelligent persons value disciplined living and thus continue with familial religious practice; or they adopt it despite its absence in their parents. Disciplined living is associated with greater economic success, which in the current cultural milieu of low wages, high rents and access to abortion allows greater fertility.

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Reinformer's avatar

Point for christians, is therefore high IQ correlated with certain disgenics patterns?

Note apart, one of my end goals in life is to know and write a book about which is the true complete racial taxonomy as I see some disagreements in race realist circles regarding jews, indians, arabs and american indians, any advice, wisdom or reccomendations you can give me for this project?

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Emil O. W. Kirkegaard's avatar

Why not just read all the population genetics studies? Global racial classification is a mess due to the various admixed groups. Humanity isn't that clear-cut as a perfect taxonomy would like, but neither is it entirely arbitrary.

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Reinformer's avatar

Thanks I'll take it, not even animal kingdom taxonomy is perfect but I want to clear some doubts like if indians and Jews are Caucasians or other thing also I hear to much the argument ''race categories varies across time and authors so it isn't really clear who is who'' I know this reasoning is fallacious but the number of anti-racists that use of this as an ultimate argumentative weapon is astonishing

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Ackermann's avatar

is the effect driven by small families or childlesness?

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Emil O. W. Kirkegaard's avatar

Look at the results for the count-models.

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Jonathon's avatar

If you want higher intelligence in the population, one of the easiest ways will be to replace the bromate in bread with iodate again.

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