Good back and forth here, I feel like I agree with the big picture theme of the book but most of your criticisms were also valid. A couple nitpicks though:
- I think comparing “dangerous male jobs” to prostitution is a little bit disingenuous. The glaring difference between loggers and prostitutes is that every single logger is there by choice, while a huge amount of prostitutes are not. Even those who are not faced with the threat of violence are often coerced at a young age or forced because of desperation/addiction. For the loggers, I’d also bet that the risk is somewhat part of the appeal, and the internal sense of validation they get from that work is very different from prostitution. Obviously, there’s a difference here between prostitutes, strippers, and only fans camgirls, which all fall under the “sexwork” umbrella.
-There is no doubt that porn is contributing to sexual dysfunction in men, independent of the decline in testosterone. The level of performance anxiety and body dysphoria relating to penis size among men is higher than its ever been. As a young man (27), I can tell you that the vast majority of guys in my friend group would fully acknowledge that porn has negatively effected their perception of sex and women. This is a group of athletic, social guys and it’s not low testosterone. I worry for the effect it’s having on kids now, who have access to hardcore porn at an insanely young age. Call me crazy, but I don’t think being exposed to hang bangs and anal sex before you’ve even gone on a date with a girl is the recipe for a healthy sexuality.
And the vast majority of the guys in my friend group have far better perceptions of sex and women than the older generations. Youre not crazy just a puritan trying to impose your own morality and standards on to everyone.
If I wanted name calling and projection, I would go on Twitter. Get a grip and read my comment again. Where did I say anything about imposing any sort of universal moral standards? Notice I didn’t even say that “porn is bad” or “porn is wrong.” You just saw my comment and filled in any ambiguity with a projection of someone you dislike.
Now to clarify. When I say “perception of women” I don’t mean in terms of their capabilities, or whether catcalling is OK or anything like that. I mean that it has distorted the perception of what good sex looks like, has lead to a lot of performance anxiety in men, which has bad effects for overall self esteem. If your friend group is completely immune to any of these issues then congrats, but it’s obviously not BECAUSE of pornhub.
Like, are you really trying to argue that unlimited access to hardcore porn from the pre teen years is going to have NO negative effects on men en masse? Are you really trying to say that unlimited exposure to the world of anal and gang bangs before you’ve even had a relationship has NO impact on your sex life later on?
There’s a lot of gray area between “porn is morally wrong” and “the current access to free unlimited porn, much of it on the extreme end, is having a negative effect on many men and women.”
isn't this just actually untrue? i'm pretty sure data shows women are, in the US at least, more supportive of trans stuff than men, at least as long as endorcing TWAW is what we use as a yardstick, with a majority of women agreeing with that statement at least. do you mean globally, or are you talking about the crazier parts?
when you're taking life advice from miserable freaks like andrea dworkin or shulamith firestone or susan "all sex is rape" brownmiller you've already taken a wrong turn.
whatever these women were writing, it had much more to do with their personal needs and wounds, their overall psychology than anything out here in the existing world. (and learning about men and straight sex from them wd be like learning about jews from the nazi party.)
valerie solanas was the best second-wave feminist bc at least her work made u laugh and there was no question you were dealing with a truly deranged nut—and also she at least put her money where her mouth was.
Good back and forth here, I feel like I agree with the big picture theme of the book but most of your criticisms were also valid. A couple nitpicks though:
- I think comparing “dangerous male jobs” to prostitution is a little bit disingenuous. The glaring difference between loggers and prostitutes is that every single logger is there by choice, while a huge amount of prostitutes are not. Even those who are not faced with the threat of violence are often coerced at a young age or forced because of desperation/addiction. For the loggers, I’d also bet that the risk is somewhat part of the appeal, and the internal sense of validation they get from that work is very different from prostitution. Obviously, there’s a difference here between prostitutes, strippers, and only fans camgirls, which all fall under the “sexwork” umbrella.
-There is no doubt that porn is contributing to sexual dysfunction in men, independent of the decline in testosterone. The level of performance anxiety and body dysphoria relating to penis size among men is higher than its ever been. As a young man (27), I can tell you that the vast majority of guys in my friend group would fully acknowledge that porn has negatively effected their perception of sex and women. This is a group of athletic, social guys and it’s not low testosterone. I worry for the effect it’s having on kids now, who have access to hardcore porn at an insanely young age. Call me crazy, but I don’t think being exposed to hang bangs and anal sex before you’ve even gone on a date with a girl is the recipe for a healthy sexuality.
And the vast majority of the guys in my friend group have far better perceptions of sex and women than the older generations. Youre not crazy just a puritan trying to impose your own morality and standards on to everyone.
If I wanted name calling and projection, I would go on Twitter. Get a grip and read my comment again. Where did I say anything about imposing any sort of universal moral standards? Notice I didn’t even say that “porn is bad” or “porn is wrong.” You just saw my comment and filled in any ambiguity with a projection of someone you dislike.
Now to clarify. When I say “perception of women” I don’t mean in terms of their capabilities, or whether catcalling is OK or anything like that. I mean that it has distorted the perception of what good sex looks like, has lead to a lot of performance anxiety in men, which has bad effects for overall self esteem. If your friend group is completely immune to any of these issues then congrats, but it’s obviously not BECAUSE of pornhub.
Like, are you really trying to argue that unlimited access to hardcore porn from the pre teen years is going to have NO negative effects on men en masse? Are you really trying to say that unlimited exposure to the world of anal and gang bangs before you’ve even had a relationship has NO impact on your sex life later on?
There’s a lot of gray area between “porn is morally wrong” and “the current access to free unlimited porn, much of it on the extreme end, is having a negative effect on many men and women.”
> and the majority of women on the other side,
isn't this just actually untrue? i'm pretty sure data shows women are, in the US at least, more supportive of trans stuff than men, at least as long as endorcing TWAW is what we use as a yardstick, with a majority of women agreeing with that statement at least. do you mean globally, or are you talking about the crazier parts?
when you're taking life advice from miserable freaks like andrea dworkin or shulamith firestone or susan "all sex is rape" brownmiller you've already taken a wrong turn.
whatever these women were writing, it had much more to do with their personal needs and wounds, their overall psychology than anything out here in the existing world. (and learning about men and straight sex from them wd be like learning about jews from the nazi party.)
valerie solanas was the best second-wave feminist bc at least her work made u laugh and there was no question you were dealing with a truly deranged nut—and also she at least put her money where her mouth was.
cheers on the excellent piece...
I like how you put "feelings" in double quotes there. As if you're not quite sure women are conscious beings.